Sound,

Thanks for sharing. Your perspective sheds a bit of light on the similarities between LotR and religion, but not LotR and Christianity. There is no replica of Christ. No hint of God.

I respect the work of Tolkien because it was meant to be fantasy. I thoroughly enjoy the concept (Then again, I was always intrigued with the concept of Star Wars). Just this past weekend, I rented LotR because I figured I should refresh the story in my mind before the new movie comes out in December. But its fiction. That's all it is. That's all it was ever meant to be.

Truly, I feel the same toward Harry Potter. I have no personal desire to see the other movies, but there is no legitimate way for me to validate the HP story as that of pure evil. Every argument I hear about it (with the recent exception of yours) is focused toward "gut feelings" and not an actual understanding of the storyline. The terms "witchcraft and sorcery" turn the heads of parents everywhere and immediately make an entire story "of the devil." That I disagree with. Its as though the "Christian world" has deemed this one author to be a satanist in her life when her story has nothing to do with satan, God, or even religion. Neither did LotR. So where is the line drawn?

Having read the stories of both Tolkien and Rowling, I've come to see that one studied more mythology than the other. One studied more wizardry than the other. One studied more religion than the other. His name was J.R.R. Tolkien. Rowling was a single parent who desired to write a children's book. Tolkien was a husband and father who desired to write of stories he had imagined for his children's bedtime stories. Neither story leads one to find Christ. Neither story leads one to seek God. Each story leads one to believe in themselves. Each story leads one to believe in "one man can make a difference." Good concepts, but not Christian concepts.

Perhaps I might gather a few who could help me picket the sale of "Lord of the Rings" the local Christian bookstore.

*sigh*

Mercy

Hello Mercy I thought I would show ya a site see what you think of it I skimmed through it briefly seems legalistic to me but thought I would see what you thought?http://users.aol.com/bible4/chrastoc.htm

------------------
Your Brother In Christ,
Joshua

MB:

Your time is better spent than picketing.


Hey, for something to be spiritually beneficial to a Christian, must it expressly reference Christ?

And where exactly are you getting the concept that it is unchristian (or anti-christian?)to have a theme that one man can make a difference?

Everytime I get ready to jump on your bandwagon, you change the band's tune.

jtw

JTW,

The theme of "one man can make a difference" is transcendent between most religions. Suicidal terrorists promote the same frame of mind for the cause of their purpose. The concept can be good or bad, but the concept, in and of itself, has nothing to do with Christianity.

Yes, I do believe that if a store is to be titled Christian, that the material within its walls should emphasize or "point to" Christ. Otherwise, the title of these stores should just say, "Religious Bookstore." Mythology (which is the source of LotR) holds no bearing on Christianity. Both are religious perspectives, but neither are a compliment toward each other.

Christian fiction is a dangerous topic to get into for many believers. Some (none that I've met personally) have actually had a problem with C.S. Lewis' imagery in the Lion, THE WITCH, and the Wardrobe. The imagery suggested (to these folks) that we could not find an understanding of salvation in a Savior in Scripture alone. That argument was never hyped, and so went the fascination with the Chronicles of Narnia.

I always enjoyed the 7-part story that Lewis had written, but as I read through the final books, I found myself wondering how much of it I should be comparing to Christianity. There became allegorical and inuendoes toward themes of Revelation that were uncertain. The entire series left me questioning things a bit. But, as a child, I wasn't fit to "study" out my Bible in order to understand what was true and what was accurate. I was simply left questioning what was accurate and what was not.

That is just my perspective. I enjoy hearing of the life of C.S. Lewis, but am often attentive to the issues of which he fantisized: Mythology. Scripture warns us to be cautious of those who turn to myths and legends.

Tolkien created a world of myths and legends. Rowling created a world of myths and legends. Lewis created a world of myths and legends. Back to our original agreed question...

Who draws the line at what is presentable as Christian literature and what is not? I absolutely adore the Star Wars concept but don't expect to see analogies in the local Christian bookstore between "the force" and "the Holy Spirit." Why? Because they have nothing to do with each other. George Lucas himself has suggested that he does not necessarily believe in God, but he does believe in a higher power. That, JTW, is an ethical problem for me when I see similar "higher power" themes within a Christian bookstore without a true direction toward God, Christ, or salvation. Otherwise, what is the purpose of such a store?

Mercy

the reason Christian bookstores carry Tolkien's work is because he was a Christian. Finding God in the Lord of the Rings explains a lot of the spiritual parallels between the books & our Christian walk, but also acknowledges that the works are NOT an allegory. Actually, according to something I read, Tolkien hated allegories!

If you do have serious concerns about the trilogy being in Christian bookstores, why don't you go to your local one & (politely, of course ) complain? Voice your concerns to the manager (make sure it's the manager though - don't overwhelm some poor salesclerk!), and explain your reasoning. He or she should be happy to listen - and may even be able to explain their thoughts on why they've stocked them. Who knows? because of you, they may be taken off the shelf; otherwise, you'll have hopefully gained a better understanding as to why you found them there.

<i> I work in a Christian bookstore, so know what I'm talking about!!

Sound,

Thanks for sharing. I didn't realize you worked in a Christian bookstore. Part of the reason that I have avoided asking the question directly from the beginning is that I know myself. The moment I first saw them on the shelves, my first thought was, "Where is the Star Wars section?" I was dying to ask something sarcastic like that to the customer service person, but chose to avoid the conflict. I figured it might be a bit impolite. But then again, that tends to be the tradition with things we disagree with in the Christian realm. We avoid saying things that we feel might "hurt someone's feelings." Even if those things we recognize or think are appropriately worthy to be addressed, we avoid saying anything.

Since noticing that the books were in the Christian bookstore, I have chosen to surface the conversation with people I meet personally or with people I meet online. It seems more appropriate in this day and age to address the real issues where they can ACTUALLY be discussed.

JTW has issues with Genesis that I disagree with based upon his perspective. Yet, he finds the Fellowship Forum (especially the private forum) useful for surfacing discussions that might not otherwise be recognized elsewhere. I recognize that I COULD bring this up at the local Christian bookstore, but as JTW expressed, my time is better spent "not picketing." Through this thread, I'm simply attempting to debate the issue at hand.

You've presented some fairly legitimate reasons through which LotR has been given a place within the "Christian" world, but as I mentioned before, I have yet to validate that Tolkien was "Christian," while Rowling was "satanist." I see the arguments and I'm just observing verbally. Don't mind me.

P.S. My wife and best friend both worked in a Christian bookstore just before I met them. They have similar concerns as I and were not free to surface logical discussions with their manager with regards to these types of issues.

Mercy

WOw, you guys can really talk. I've never seen harry potter, i saw about 3/4 of the rings, and to tell you the truth, I didn't like it at all. I own the dvd of harry, but haven't watchedit, I tried reading the book but kinda got lost and uninterested in the first chapter so I gave it up. In my opinion, I think that it's ok for christians to read it and little kids, as long as they know before they go in to it that it's not real, and that it's all fantasy. I don't think it should be planted in them that all this is true adn all. I didn't see any religious thing at all in Lord of the Rings. I thought it should have been rated R and that little kids shouldn't watch it because a lot of it is just down right scary, and a lot to me just doesn't make sense. I also think that they shouldn't have it in a christian bookstore or label it as christian, or religion, and just let it be fantasy or whatever, and let christians do what they wish. About star wars, I've seen them all, and althought their not christian, there's nothing wrong with christians, or even little kids to see. that's just my two cents worth though.
erin

I think whatever we read and watch is what were feeding ourselves and what will be on our thoughts and come out of our mouths. Thats why I think its so important to live in God's Grace to live according to His Word since a man does not live on Bread alone but the Word of God "Bread of Life." So I for one will choose to be careful on what I eat meaning Spiritual Food for everything is spiritual in an essence and I think if we feed ourselves with worldly stuff then that will be where are hearts are and when we feed ourselves with God's word we will be doing awesome praise the LORD. I think its very imortant to use this Grace that the Lord has shown us to grow in Christ by getting into the word and by letting the Word penetrate our hearts we see that this is where the pharisees messed up they used the word to do outward acts but never let it penetrate there hearts. May the Lord bless us all and guide us all with His Holy Spirit that is in us in all His Ways

------------------
Your Brother In Christ,
Joshua

[This message has been edited by NoLimitChristian777 (edited 08-18-2002).]

i guess i see the point of conflict, but i personally don't see it as a necessary conflict.

does it matter if LoTR is christian or not? does it bring you closer to god if it is? it's a fine piece of literature that i enjoyed immensely (and the movie butchered the complexities of the book btw) but i didn't feel religiously inspired by it.

does harry potter promote witchcraft? i never saw anything in the books or movies that hinted at actual witchcraft. there were spells and wands and brooms and stuff but thats the stereotype cutesy witchcraft you see in cartoons and really bares no resemblance to actual witchcraft that i've seen. witches, spells, and magic are all about as real as santa claus. i suppose the problem lies more in peoples misconception about things they know little about than what the book is really about.

ive read all the books, and i think it's a wonderfull little story, i never saw a scene in the book that promoted witchcraft. there are no witch covens (that the term or not?) that actually go around with wands and fly on brooms casting spells. none. all i can see to it is that it's a fantasy novel about a child who feels different but finds his place and becomes accepted. there are good vs. evil aspects but its not the primary focus because at the same time it works as a mystery so friends and enemies can switch sides.

it's probably just me but i dont think that religion of any kind has much to do with either book. tolkein did do alot of studying for lotr but it barrows much more from beowulf than the bible. rowling sure did implement magic and the term witch into her story but it has nothing to do with witchcraft or wiccan beliefs, both of these books are fantasy novels, just that and nothing more.

Soundtech made my day I do remember that thread My B-day is Wednesday and if I don't get a copy of LOTR DVD I'll be crushed. (Nope doesn't matter that I saw it in the theater five times, twice at a friends and read the bood )

I've also seen Harry Potter, as my 10 year old brother is a big fan. He was upset to hear there was controversy over it and demanded to know why. I explained it and he said that was silly, he knew that he can't do magic and that people who think they can are probably talking to the devil more. I was like WOW He says it's just a really good fiction book that he likes to read. There are definately worse books, homosexuality and violence are being explained and dealt with earlier and ealier. (Believe it or not I found a book in the toddler section once talking about a baby with two daddys) Let kids be kids a bit and have some make believe fun. If you raise them right they will know the difference between right and wrong, whether they face pressure or the TV.

Okay so that seemed like a lot of yak. I don't see why either should be up for controversy. Both have an underlining good vs evil. Potter's downfall is it is a witch school and APPEARS to promote being a witch but proper rearing would direct children otherwise, (and adults )

And if I"m not here Wednesday, assume I'm watching my favorite movie