But it wouldn't be Christian. And the fact is, spirituality doesn't save.

------------------
By His grace-



And when I stand, let me stand on the promise,
that you will pull me through,
And when I fall, let me fall on the grace,
that first brought me to you.
-Rich Mullins.

Amen!

the book of Esther never mentions God

Sound,

Not a bad interlude. Way to pull it out there!

I'm not a huge Old Testament buff, but if there is anything that stands out in Old Testament Scripture, it is how God and His chosen nation operated in the world. How they were treated and how they treated. How they were created and how they conquered.

Esther was in fact, a Jew. In the Old Testament, a reference to a Jew means one thing... one from the chosen nation of God. Its almost the "understood" you in our present day english. We say, "Go!" But we don't use the word "you." The one who hears the exclamation understands who the audience is.

From what I understand of the Old Testament canonization, there was much debate over which books were "inspired" of God. This particular book of Esther does not fit under the books of Law or the books of Prophecy, but simply follows a series of stories in the Samuels, Kings, etc. Ultimately, it outlines a literal situation in which the Jews (i.e. "The people of God") were in danger.

Ultimately, at the time that the Old Testament was once the prevailing Scripture, Gentiles (you and I) were not reading it. Jews read it and understood its audience. Today, we can glean from the story, but "our" Scriptures deal with Christ crucified and risen. At the time of Esther, there was no Christ, nor prophecy of Christ. Just a nation of God that had been promised forever.

Mercy

I thought I'd just lighten things up by talking about my 21st birthday yesterday I got 5 LOTR bookmarkers, the DVD, an orc toy (family says I look like that when I wake up) and a ring raith bank that screams when you put money in it. I also got a BEAUTIFUL cross necklace. Hope it's not contradictory for anyone, for I'm quite happy! I coulda got drunk like the other 21 year olds but I had a Fellowship of the ring themed bday instead. HEHE hope I'm making some sense, if not thanks for listening to the B-Day ramble.

Sounds like fun!! I don't know if I'd be able to handle that bank, though - I got shivers running up my spine thinking about it.

Happy belated b-day, musichick!

Hoss:

You exclude everything that does not specifically mention Christ, right? Exclude, exclude, exclude. Phooooeeeyy!!!!


I say INCLUDE, INCLUDE, INCLUDE. The path is wide, the gates open, the entryway to them gates stretches a country mile!!!!!! Cuz God wants to INCLUDE, INCLUDE, INCLUDE!!!!


jtw

JTW,

Problem is, as Servant and many others have presented, anyone can be religious. Religion is not salvation. The salvation that we place our faith in (at least myself) is that of Christ Jesus. Without a knowledge of Christ Jesus, there is NO entry into heavenly places.

Ultimately, consider that if we could be saved without a knowledge of Christ, that Christ would have suffered and died in vain. It would have served no purpose. His death, burial, and resurrection is our salvation through our own death, burial, and resurrection.

In order to include, include, include, you've got to teach, teach, teach and share, share, share. Those who have not known Christ Jesus as the ultimate price of salvation will be excluded, excluded, excluded.

Books about religion, morals, or "elementary principles" will not give anyone the salvation necessary to touch heaven. In fact, many of those books will give people the idea that they can achieve salvation within themselves. As in, they learn to believe that with good morals, elementary principles, and a strong religion, they'll be saved. In that, Christ is not.

Mercy

Hey Hoppy,

Perhaps we need to go back and look at JFriend's original question:



You replied:



To me, it would seem that you and JFriend are in agreement. There is agreement in that the movie contains a spiritually positive message. JFriend even said, "I'd agree that the film shows some very powerful foundational truths...I don't want to belabor this too much, because I really like the movie ... it inspires me with it's sense of virtue striving against temptation and evil."

But JFriend's point was not whether or not the movie was spiritually uplifting. The issue he raised, as I understand it, was whether or not a movie can be considered "Christian" "...without actually bringing in a Christ figure".?

Does spiritually uplifting equate to being Christian? My response was no, it doesn't.

That was the point I was making.

Did I misunderstand the discussion? If so, then I apologize.

------------------
By His grace-



And when I stand, let me stand on the promise,
that you will pull me through,
And when I fall, let me fall on the grace,
that first brought me to you.
-Rich Mullins.

Hi all,

This is a great conversation. By the way, happy birthday, Musichick!

Early Christian teachers when in dialogue with pagans would often teach them truths by means of philosophy, and only after these came to agree would it be stated that these truths were Christian doctrines. If the pagans had been told in advance that they would be hearing Christian doctrines, many of them would not have listened or discussed in the first place.

Tolkien's works achieve a similar effect today. As literature, however, the books illustrate great truths rather than present them in syllogisms.

Similar to Tolkien, Christ often taught in parables. Parables and novels are both kinds of literature, which can in either case be vehicles of religious education. Jesus' parables do not contain the name "Jesus" or the title "Christ", and no one has to make any apology for this. I think that this answers the arguments of those who find Tolkien's books non-Christian simply because they do not contain the words Jesus or Christ.

Of course, from a literary standpoint a novel is different from a parable so we read them a little differently. A parable is an analogy in the form of an extended simile. Different kinds of literature complement each other. Tolkien's novels present not one detailed analogy but many striking allusions to Christian realities, with the result that his readers cannot easily systematize his illustrations of Christian truths and so dismiss them. Non-Christian readers therefore read Tolkien without feeling threatened, and therefore they let themselves experience and enjoy what are Christian truths. Thus they are drawn towards Christ. Therefore I call these books Christian books. They are much like C.S. Lewis' fiction, filled with Christianity but not exhausting Christianity (just with a different presentation: Lewis makes his allusions to Christianity as obvious as possible, while Tolkien is subtle).

The only argument I can think of that would conclude that Tolkien's books are not Christian assumes that unless the whole of Christianity is presented, no Christianity at all is presented. This is a premise I would have to disagree with; Christianity has more than one doctrine. Christ Himself taught in degrees, one truth at a time, and yet His teaching was always Christian and in each case worthy of inclusion in Christian book stores. In fact, perhaps there is a lot more Christian truth to be gleaned from The Lord of the Rings than there is from other books in Christian book stores.

Best wishes in Christ,

Luke

[This message has been edited by LukeFromAedificatio (edited 08-22-2002).]