Phlo,

First of all, you brought up a phenomenal story from my childhood. When you said "The Neverending Story," I about fell over in my chair because I had forgotten how wonderful that story was! Then you said "Labrynth," and I actually fell off my chair again! That was another favorite movie I had as a child! Remember Valcor? Atrau asks Valcor what he is and then you hear, "I'm a luck dragon." Valcor rocked!!! I used to get on the edge of my seat when Atrau was treading through the swamp with the wolf chasing after him and Valcor came down out of the sky. Geez! I need to go rent that sometime this weekend!


Susan,

Don't intimidate me with your upcoming class on Greek . You're already a good debator, and I'm not sure what I'd do if you actually learned Greek and surpassed what little I know.

You are probably quite wise to pull back on the concept you were presenting with regards to accessing the Father through the Virgin Mary. That's an entirely different theme of discussion of which I'm sure we'll stand to disagree firmly. But another time perhaps.

I truly appreciate what you said about how the world often views Christianity as dull, boring, and lifeless. This is quite true. Even with all that has recently become "charismatic" in our day and age, the image of religion, Christianity, and/or a belief in Christ is one of plain appearance and practically nothing joyful to exhibit.

Yet, I must stand strong enough to agree with Phlo's suggestion that creating subtle images or "allusions" that characterize the Christian life will not even remotely lead someone to Christ if there is not someone there to guide them beyond the "image" or the "allusion." You and Luke have made it quite clear that LOTR does not necessarily represent a specific Christ figure, but rather, it represents the life of a humble Christian (through the imaginary world of Frodo Baggins). But let me ask you a logical question based upon your notion...

You quoted a few scenes from the Simpsons in an attempt to show how the world views Christianity and faith. Underneath your attempt, I believe (correct me if I am wrong) you were also attempting to then show that through stories like LOTR, Christianity can be viewed as "not boring." So ultimately, the notion you are presenting is that LOTR presents Christianity to the world in a way that is not seen as boring. So let me ask...

Have you met one single non-believer who ever came to you saying something like, "Wow! I saw LOTR today and just never knew that Christianity could be so exciting!!!" I'm thinking not, but you can feel free to correct me.

If your notion is that LOTR is placed in the world for the sake of showing a more "exciting" view of Christianity, I would certainly hope that there might be SOMETHING that implies actual Christianity. But I do not see that in any way. And ultimately, no one in the world is viewing it in that way either. They see it as a wonderful and remarkable classic fiction. Their minds don't stretch so far as to believe that Christianity should now be viewed as much more breathtaking.

I believe, and I'm thinking that Phlo would agree with me on this one, that if someone needs to get "excited" about Christianity or about Christ, let them hear about it from one of us. Do we not convey the joy necessary to show someone the "exciting" side of a life lived in Christ? Perhaps it should become more personal if that is the case. Until then, I'm not likely to go around showing videos of LOTR, Star Wars, and/or The Neverending Story in a weekly Bible Study meeting.

Enjoy your evening,

Mercy

(Phlo, I really, really, really DO need to rent that movie! I own Labrynth on video, but haven't seen TNS since I was like 15!)

Hiya Mercy, Phlo, Luke, et al.

Mercy: Thanks for the compliment!!! I've never been much of a debator until I came here - never needed to do much - you guys are creating a monster!

I certainly do not think that the MOVIE of the Lord of the Rings would ever teach Christian virtue except in the sole case of it leading a person to read the books, because it is in the books that the teaching value lies. The movie has very little of it.
So I don't encourage you to show the Lord of the Rings (much less the Neverending story or , God forbid, Star Wars) at a bible study meeting. That's not what they're for. They're for bible study.

I have never put forward that the Lord of the Rings is Christian in the sense that it can lead unbelievers to Christ on its own. What it can do is work alongside careful catechesis, bible study, teaching and above all prayer to help the person in question understand what it is Christ asks of us as his people. We do need the bible and neither LOTR, the Narnia Series, or the Space Trilogy will ever supplant it or even come close, and I'm sure that Tolkien and Lewis would agree vehemently.

That said. People coming into a Christian bookstore are most likely (I would guess 99%) to be already Christian with a devotion to their faith such that they wish to read more and to instruct themselves. Thus the LOTR is suitable for them at this point as Christian literature, for they will be seeking for Christian truths in it as they read. One might say that the best way to get people to see the Christianity in the Lord of the Rings and to learn what it has to teach in a Christian context is to sell it in a Christian bookstore.

Please stop making comparisons with LOTR and Labyrinth, NES or comic books. The depth, breadth and scope do not compare. And none of the others were written with a Christian purpose.

When I talk about needing to put Christianity sometimes in more attractive packaging (not just exciting) I'm not speaking only of the Lord of the Rings but of many other instances where, in order to help people to understand the truth about Christians, rather than the surface appearance, we present things in a different and new way. I don't think LOTR was placed in the world to show a more exciting example of Christianity; that's not the sole reason why it was created. But it can do that, if the reader is open to it.

For me, the teaching value of the Lord of the Rings comes mostly in two ways:

1) For those who are already Christian, seeking a book to read that is new and different but morally sound and with a lesson to be learned about Christian virtue and the nature of Christ by presenting aspects of Christ through the characters and the story.

2) For the non-Christian, as an interesting story with heroes who demonstrate all of what a hero should be - not just brave, but loving, loyal, chaste, wise...(Ever notice that most of the things that make us like and respect the heros of LOTR are the Gifts of the Spirit?) who finds himself looking for a hero like that in the world and, through the ministry of Christians to him, comes to realize that the one real-life hero who fits all of what he is looking for is Christ himself. LOTR was never meant to be a new Bible or an addition to the Bible, but simply one roadsign along the journey.

You say that "No one in the world" is seeing any kind of Christianity in LOTR. I am. Luke does. My prof does. Some of the others participating in this discussion do. The InterVarsity Christian Fellowship at my University had a discussion night and publications about Christianity in the Lord of the Rings (IVCF is, I might add, a rather fundamentalist organization). Non-Christian academic writers have written about Christian themes in LOTR. The people who wrote the articles Maggie posted (did you read them? They're great!). Maybe not everyone who reads LOTR will see Christ. Maybe not even the majority will not. But some will, and that is enough. I know people who have read the Bible, some more than once, and see it as no more than a collection of interesting stories, whose beliefs have not been influenced by it at all. That doesn't diminish it.

"I believe, and I'm thinking that Phlo would agree with me on this one, that if someone needs to get "excited" about Christianity or about Christ, let them hear about it from one of us. Do we not convey the joy necessary to show someone the "exciting" side of a life lived in Christ? Perhaps it should become more personal if that is the case. Until then, I'm not likely to go around showing videos of LOTR, Star Wars, and/or The Neverending Story in a weekly Bible Study meeting."

No. Most Christians, sad as it may be, do not convey the joy necessary to show someone the "exciting" side of Christ, and many who do do so in such a fervent way that it becomes offputting. Those few who can strike the balance are doing marvelous work in the world. And it is not to those who would be in the Bible Study who need to receive the message.

Love,
Susan

Mercy,

you described the part that i remember most about NTS, in which Valcor came to save the day just in the nick of time 'phew'!
man, when i first saw that years ago, it was dark and i was all tensed up thinking that the wolf is gonna hae his last meal before the "Nothing" get'em!!!!

i have both NTS and Labyrinth, tho they are recorded !

Luke,

again, i must thank you for even your love and respect that you/your post show as you converse with me/us!
do you know that i yet look up to you and how you use the Word to show us the Word - basically, how you discern the Word/Truth!
thank you, Sir Luke!

now, i must say that i believe that Christ spoke in parables for a particular reason!

i believe that he spoke plainly so that everyone could know what He is saying and what He means!
but i believe that He spoke in parables so that He could confuse or confound those that He alone knew where His enemy/against Him!
and only those that were His could be able to grasp what He meant!

are you, then, saying Luke, that Lotr was written to confuse it's enemies but reveal truth to it's followers?

no, i'm sure you're not saying that!!!!
but i do wish to inquire what you are saying based on my question (in which i understood you to be saying) (i could be wrong, but correct, please)

and the last thing that you said about being 'wise as a serpent yet humble as a dove'!

i think we need to look at the actions and reactions of a serpent!
one thing we can say about a serpent is that it is very keen & observant!
[I THINK THIS IS WHAT CHRIST WAS TELLING US WHEN HE MADE THE COMPARISON]
we, as Christians, need to be very sober minded and watchful!

before a serpent acts or reacts it studies it's enviroment!
thus, it knows when to strike, and if to strike, and/or just slither away!

we, too, need not to be so hasteful but cautious & 'wise' to the moves we make as Christians!
and when we make the moves, be mindful to be as humble/harmless as doves!

this is what i believe 'subtle as a serpent' means!

it doesn't mean to be tricky as satan!
or be like a con-man (you know what i mean) as the old nature man, Jacob!
when were presenting the gospel of Christ to a dying world!
their soul's are at stake, we don't have time to cover the Word when we give it to them!
or try to hide the Word when we give it to them!
not even if they do think its boring or not!


we got to be like parents giving their little children vegetables whether they want it or not!
[WHAT THEY DO WITH IT, IS THEIR BUSINESS]
i know sometimes when my mother turned her back, i gave my vegetables to the dog!
if not the trash!
(shame on me )

SusanW,

i really hope that i'm not getting under your skin because i don't wanna do that!

and i know you asked if we would stop comparing Lotr to NTS and/or comics but (believe it or not), it is 'this' that i see a comparison and not Lotr/Christianity!

and i really, really beg the differ with you when you say that 'Lotr has much more depth to it than comic book heros'!!!!
not to start a brand new debate but (correct me if i'm wrong) Lotr is simply a series while comics (and i could get specific) are on going!!!!

as a collector of comics, i believe that some comics (if not all) are more, way more indepth than a mere (tho, good) series!

i have plenty of issues where good characters resembled Christ (had Christ like values) and evil characters resemble satan!
i have comics that literally portray lucifer and God!
characters who go by the names of, Tri-Bunal (i may have spelled his name wrong) the all seeing and knowing one, Eternity (a character), Infinite (a character), and even a character who goes by all of the name of the devil!!

these characters existed longer than i have been a collector!
they have existed since new heros have come and gone!

SusanW, do you know why some people even by comics?
because when they feel they can't relate to no one in reality, they could relate to a hero or even a bad guy!
(because some bad guys turned bad simply by feeling excluded from the rest of the world)

i would suggest that you spend a couple of years reading certain series and witness how indepth you would get, especially, when you find someone who you have things in common with!
and watch them grow, and grow, and grow!

now, i would say that all books aren't good!
but some are find!

i hope i didn't sound like i took that way too personal, please forgive me i did!!!

but again, i don't call these books literature of Christianity!
yeah, they have alot of values of Christianity but they aren't literature of Christianity!

and, oh, there are some Christian comics!
(the ones i've read just aren't as interesting as my regular comics)

oh, and some of them have the Christianity values in them without the mythologies and magic in them!
tho, most do have the mythologies in order to create or have the fantasies/stories!

=====

last point:

based off of your posts, it seems as if Christians (those that are Christians already) would be able to notice the Christian values that are in Lotr!
but non-Christians wouldn't, they would just recognize it as a good fantasy or story!

i see that i would have to read the books to see what you are talking about, as you've suggested!
but it just seems like, based on all the characters that you've named and what they do, i would be trying to keep up with them and who they are instead of seeing any values of Christ in them!

i'm better off reading/listening/looking at you and discerning ( ) your values of Christ than those of the characters!!!

[I'M NOT BEING SMART WITH YOU, PLEASE DON'T THINK THAT I AM]

personally, you haven't motivated me or inspired me to read Lotr or see the movie to learn of Christ thru Tolkein's work, yet!

its almost like i'm giving you a chance to give me a GREAT or GOOD reason why i should inquire about Lotr!
after all, it is or could be a witnessing tool, right?
since it have Christian values in it?

well, thank you, SusanW for even taking the time to read my post!
i know that you don't have to and i don't take it for granted!!!

much Love infinitely,
we MUST continue to love!

phlo:

Let me try to relate to you what Susan is getting at, but that you are missing my friend. You're a music man, right? Okay. You love music, and love playing. When you jam you get the music on a number of different levels don't ya?

From what the music people tell me, the lyrics verbally talk about what is going on, the guitar has another message that is layered in that compliments the lyrics, the drum is booming out another layer of the story that this flowing out to the audience, and the same is true with the other instruments.

The music works on a number of different levels. Writing, when you really dig it, and it is done well is no different. It works on many different levels my friend.

Think about it.

jtw

King JTW:

so, are you saying that you agree that the Lotr series and/or movie has Christian values that are clearly and undeniably noticed?
and has it motivated you and inspired you to seek Christ?

or has it at least gain your respect that Christ and/or His ways are in it?
(some people may see Christ in it and just don't want Him, and some don't see Christ at all)

and in your illustration of music, some instruments are not clearly and/or undeniably noticed!
thats a fact!
you may hear the guitar and you may hear the drums and you may hear the organ but you didn't noticed that there were some congos in it!
you didn't noticed that there were segments of a piano playing in it!
WHY?
because you couldn't hear it!

it could be either lower than the other instruments or it could be played in segments!

and unless you are a producer in a studio dissecting each track (so you can hear each individual instrument), you probably won't catch it!!!!

please don't get me wrong, i understand how both music/writing can be 'subtle', if you will!!!

i just don't think that 'presenting the Gospel of Christ' is subtle!
to me, it is point blank!
no gray!
Jesus is who He is and we either make a decision to accept it or not!

and again when He spoke in parables, He did so because He knew who His enemies were!
(not so much of the people [pharisees & saduccees] but the spirits that influenced them)

Jesus, being God, knew already who was His and who wasn't!
we don't know who all belong to Jesus and who don't!

so we can't speak in parables, per se, to confound His enemies of today!
we speak the Truth plain and simple, as He has given us!!

trust me, i'm not trying to make this hard or anything!
i'm just saying that it shouldn't be hard to locate the message, or attributes, or values of Christ in something!
music or literature!

thats where i am!!!



man, i hope we could still laugh, fellowship, and rejoice together after this, family!!!!

like i have said before, i don't want nothing petty to separate us from His Love!
that is, separate us from each other!

its okay to disagree on simple things, just as long we yet agree on Christ!

much Love infinitely,
how can we inspire each other to love?

Hi Phlo,

Your post troubles me. Do you mean to say that you have not actually read the Lord of the Rings? You know that you have my respect, Phlo, but do you really think it's wise to pass judgement on a book before you read it? That you can make a right judgement on its values and deeper meaning without having more than a general idea of the plot? I urge you to read it and then form your judgement. I don't know of anyone following this thread who would think that just reading it would be harmful to your faith .

As for why Jesus spoke in parables, I have to say that I don't think I agree with you on that. Perhaps I should reread those parts of the Bible again (and know whereof I speak) but my impression was always that Jesus taught us to love our enemies, and that when he dealt with his enemies he was even yet trying to bring them to the light as well? (eg. when the pharisees wanted to stone the adulteress, and Jesus wrote on the sand something which caused them to stop their sinful act). Why would Jesus hide his teachings from them in this way, when they would have been in the most need to hear them and understand? I honestly believe that Jesus' use of subtlty in the parables was more an aid to comprehension through illustration than an act of hiding his teachings from anyone. I would think most of the parables were obvious enough that it would have been a rather thin covering!

Much love,
Susan

Susan,

okay, maybe i could read it and get something out of it myself!
i agree!
but, Susan, you've read it!
and you're sharing pieces of it with us!
i should get something, at least SOMETHING, out of that!

true, i could read it for myself and get something!
and i could hear it from someone else who is or has been all in it (a true fan) and get something!
to me, it really doesn't make any difference!
if what you're telling me so far is in it, then i am not yet motivated to get into it!
WHY?
again, because i don't see (thru by you - a sort of an ambassador for the series) where Christ or Christianity is in it!

you know, maybe i should stop participating in this debate!
the only reason i continue in it is because you stressed that the Lotr series has Christianity values in it!
now, if you would've said that its just a great fantasy book, full of adventure, and a good read - then i would have a different perspective on it!

======

and you know, Susan, you surprise me with your response of Christ's parables!
of course, Christ Loves His enemies!
and yes we are to love them as well!!!
but Christ knew (for sure) those who were His enemy!
remember when Jesus told them (mainly the pharisees) that 'the reason you do not receive me or what i say is because YOU ARE OF YOUR FATHER, THE DEVIL'?

and in spite of that, He did many miracles before them and they still chose to not believe!
(check out John 12:37-43)

Christ Loved them but they hated Him!!!

there is also a scripture (in which i have not much time to find for you, right now) - it is only given to the chosen people of God to know the mysteries of the Kingdom!!!!!

Christ/God predestinated (for knew) ahead of time (ahead of literal TIME) who would hear Him and who would reject Him!

okay, i really gotta go so, Susan please have a blessed weekend & holiday!!!

much Love infinitely,
i love you - do you love me?

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ps...Love you family

I don't know if anyone has already noted this.....but.....JRR Tolkien was a Christian. He wrote the Lord of the Rings with a theme in mind.

I'm not entirely sure what the theme is quite yet...but I'm sure it'll become clear as time passes...*shrugs* I've heard the theme is obsession...obviously with the Ring, anyway...my first thought when I saw it was that the Ring represented sin, and they were going to the place where it was created to destroy it...thus, destroying sin. I don't know, that was my thought.

I refuse to see Harry Potter.

It may have been noted, but CS Lewis is ALSO a Christian. His books contain sorcery and witches and such...yet there's a HUGE theme.
He wrote many books on Christianity, and yet....his children's books give a total insight to Christian life and Bible stories.

Read "The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe."

Then tell me whom you think Aslan is depicting.
Or, tell me from these simple facts:

-The evil queen grows jealous of Aslan's power
-She orders to have him slain
-He is slain on the "Stone Table"
-Three days (?) later, he rises to slay the witch

See a pattern?


I may have repeated some things some of you have said already, and I'm sorry...I didn't really feel like reading four pages at the moment! ^_^

I don't know what you'll all think of my opinions.....but whatever!

Love you all,
Sher


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"Though my back is cut to ribbons with their whips, the Lord is GOOD. For he has snapped the chains that evil men had bound me with." -Psalms 129:3-4

"I am the Way-Yes, the Truth and the Life. No-one can get to the Father except by means of Me."