I'm reading a site...and after reading all of page one...I realize all the stuff I said you all know already! ^_^ Silly me.

This is all extremely interesting......


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"Though my back is cut to ribbons with their whips, the Lord is GOOD. For he has snapped the chains that evil men had bound me with." -Psalms 129:3-4

"I am the Way-Yes, the Truth and the Life. No-one can get to the Father except by means of Me."

Here I am, triple posting. Sorry, family.

I'm reading at the moment, whereas I posted that the Ring was about obsession.....its more or less sin, as someone pointed out in page one.

The topic is "The Power of Sin" (From the book "Finding God in the Lord of the Rings" by Jim Ware).

The writers say: "You'll also want to keep an eye on Gollum, the pitiful, wretched creature who discovered the great Ring—his "Precious"—and kept it for many years in dark places under the earth. So long did he possess and cherish the sinister talisman that he has become the possessed. That's because Tolkien's Ring is an image of the unwholesome, perverting power of evil and self-serving sin—a progressive, growing, encroaching power that starts small and ends big. The apostle James described it like this: "Each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death" (James 1:14-15). "

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"Though my back is cut to ribbons with their whips, the Lord is GOOD. For he has snapped the chains that evil men had bound me with." -Psalms 129:3-4

"I am the Way-Yes, the Truth and the Life. No-one can get to the Father except by means of Me."

Sherilyn,

Firstly, welcome to the conversation! This one has been going on for a few weeks now and I'm quite impressed at its longevity. If anything more can be said that has not, it is the irony for the title of the book you quoted... "Finding God in the Lord of the Rings."

Just think about the title for a second. Okay. Look at it again. Do you see it?

Were the story to stand alone as a correlation between Christianity, Christ, or even God (as generic as that can be), would we truly need a book entitled, "Finding God in the Lord of the Rings?" Isn't that just a bit foolish?

You quoted The Lion, The Witch, and the Wardrobe and I again found it ironic that when I read those books, it was made clear to me prior to reading them that they were written as a fictional represenation of Christ, faith, and Christianity. I knew going into it that I was reading "Christian fiction." And upon reading it as a child, I didn't need an interpretative book entitled "Finding God in the Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe" to understand what each character represented. Did you? Did anyone else? We just knew that Aslan (The Lion) represented Christ. Pretty self explanatory.

Now we have the dillema that has stood out in my mind since page 1 of this debate. Lord of the Rings was never presented as Christian fiction amidst our Christian Fiction Bookshelves at the Christian Bookstores. Why is that? I'm not sure anyone has presented an answer.

What HAS become clear is that once the movie hit the big screen, everyone (mostly the world) was RAVING about how incredible the story was. EVERYONE wanted to see how the movie would compare with the treasured fantasy that they had been reading since childhood. And to be honest, growing up in a Christian home and pretty much knowing every Christian song to hit the radio and every book to hit the shelf, I didn't hear about Lord of the Rings until it became a hype. THEN. ONLY THEN. Did it show up on Christian Bookshelves.

But I dare you to wander around in your local Barnes and Nobles. Tell me, please, where do you find Lord of the Rings filed? What section? I do believe you'll find it either seperated on its own (because of its world wide attention nowdays) or you'll find it back in the fantasy section of the store.

Walk into a Christian bookstore today and guess what? Its at the front entrance in its own section with books, screenplays, toys, etc. I'm sorry, but I have a problem with that. Never before was this "worldly" fantasy promoted in the Christian world. Perhaps that had been the original intent of JRR Tolkien, but that was not the result until December 2001. Suddenly, and out of the blue, the Lord of the Rings became a combined sensation for both the world and for the Christian bookstores.

While all the works of C.S. Lewis gleamed the Christian shelves for years, you did not see JRR Tolkien gleaming anything but the fantasy section at Barnes and Nobles. Irony? I'm just not sure. Odd and contradictory? Absolutely.

Sorry to be so randomly cold on this issue, but I probably should have gone to bed just a little while ago and suddenly decided to resurface the original question of...

Why now? Why has Christianity suddenly embraced LOTR when they had not embraced it before a worldly director created a worldly movie that became a world-wide success?

I'm thinking that some have a response so I'll leave it at that. As I mentioned before, it amazes me that this conversation has lasted as long as it has, so I figure, why not further it by addressing once again the original question posed on Page 1. Why now? Why not before?

Enjoy your weekend,
Mercy

I don't see the huge change, because my brother & his friends (well, our friends ) have been obsessed with it for years. I can understand where you're coming from, but at the same time don't really have a problem with it (you may find it of interest, however, that my manager stocked Finding God in the Lord of the Rings at my recommendation, but refused to order the actual LotR books... maybe you should switch bookstores ).

I've heard a rumor that there's a company planning to film the Chronicles of Narnia. If so, I'm anticipating the same hoopla we've seen with LotR. It's amazing how many people aren't familier with Narnia & C.S. Lewis, both Christians & non-Christians.

HI everybody! Hope you're enjoying the weekend. I'm getting ready to start my first teaching position, so please pray for me... I'm pretty nervous!! Just stopping by to read this thread, and thought I might drop in a line...

Have you heard of the idea of "types"? It is a fundamentally Christian way of understanding the world. Think back to Jonah for a second. He refuses to answer God's call because it's not to his taste or understanding. He tries to run away - and where does he end up? Belly of the whale for 3 days until he turns back to God, whereupon he serves at Nineveh and the sinners are saved, again the 3 days of ahes and "death" in repentence etc. His life has deepest meaning in its points of contact or similarity with the life of Chirst. The power of his actions and words when he serves in this way is Christ's power. In the New Testament, you'll notice a lot of the epistles conveying this truth... take up your cross and follow Jesus; Paul's thorn in the side; being made over into the new man, fashioned in the likeness of CHrist.
THere are many ways in which we express this sort of idea... and it is not to be taken in a fundamentalist literalism... i.e. I doubt I will die on a cross, I am not a man, and wait! I'm not GOd either! YOu'll notice that unlike Christ, Jonah did not accept GOd's will; he ran away. In this way, we understand that we are much like him... but we also know that, like him, we can turn our lives around. In our human, limited way, we can recieve the astounding grace of God that will indeed transform us into the body of Christ... not because Christ's sacrifice is lacking - it isn't! It is complete, once for all. But WE need to serve as we are called... and the idea is that inasmuch as my life conforms to GOd's will, I will become more and more the person I was born to be.
Many great literary works express this reality through the use of recognizable symbols and signs from the life of Christ. In order to be true to their purpose, these methods must incorporate Christian concepts of grace and surrender, of love, fidelity, duty and courage, as well as all the other attributes of "the Christian walk".
THe Lord of the Rings does this. Like the much older and more overt work, Pilgrim's Progress, and the also more obvious Narnia series, its primary structure is that of a journey. Mountains and valleys are important to the landscape of this journey. Many of the other "points of contact" (i.e. Gandalf's resurrection) have already been mentioned on this site or in the earlier links, so I won't go into detail there.
Readers often identify with the main character of a work; here, it's obviously Frodo. Frodo is meant to be much like you or I, and any readers of the work will see those resemblances. HIs journey is, like ours, fraught with fear, indecision, cowardice, bursts of grace and courage, and humour. He is small - and his height is important to his character. He posseses no innate powers like those of angels, nor great knowledge. But he seeks, and he serves, and in the end he climbs the mountain through his own "long, dark night of the soul". MOre I haven't the time to elaborate on, but the nature of sin and mercy are KEY to understanding the journey.
IS LOTR the Bible? NO. Is it authoritative? No. Is it the same type of work as comica or ither fantasy? No - it's Christian fantasy, a special and powerful sort of literary work.
What is literature meant to do? I believe that's the question that must be examined.
My life's greatness, if it has any, comes from it's patterning of Christ's life. Jesus was so much more than man, and his life so much more than ordinary. Without Christ, there is no meaning in our existence. His life WROTE THE BOOK on meaning, and any beauty, grace or godliness in this world flows from it. AMEN! So daily putting aside my belly, my fatigue, my desires for "safety" in the known and easy, in order to follow Christ wherever he may take me... well, that's the definition of heroic to me, and it's something to which I aspire. Think, then of the type of hero Tolkien set up in Frodo. Does it teach us that we all CAN be heros? We don't have to be all the same... as is shown in the "types" you can explore in Aragorn, even Boromir or the elves... or Gandalf. We are called to our own paths, but these paths will all lead us, if we follow, in Christ's footsteps.
Hope that's not gobbledeegook! Gotta run!

Love, Maggie

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Buryin' hatred, building the Kingdom: no walls, just doors!

Kingdom,

I hope your first shot at teaching becomes your inspiration toward continued teaching. May you be blessed in your pursuit of reaching children, for we need those like you in the system. Love your students and they will love you back no matter how hard their lives are outside the classroom. May you make your classroom a haven of escape and education for the passion of young minds.

You said,

"Many great literary works express this reality through the use of recognizable symbols and signs from the life of Christ. In order to be true to their purpose, these methods must incorporate Christian concepts of grace and surrender, of love, fidelity, duty and courage, as well as all the other attributes of "the Christian walk".
THe Lord of the Rings does this."

I'm not gonna spend too much time on this at the moment because I'm on my way out the door, but I'd like to suggest that I wholeheartedly disagree.

The Lord of the Rings shows the same thing that every other great literary work has shown. Virtue, courage, and humility. All of these things are religious and span a great number of faiths, but they are not necessarily Christian. The problem ultimately becomes once again, without the book entitled "Finding God in the Lord of the Rings" or looking REALLLLLLY closely at the words and the literature, you will NOT notice anything Christian about it. As in, nothing just remarkably stands out. How do I know? Because if it were that obvious, the world would not consider it so worldly. They would view it also as Christian fiction. Reality is that the WORLD does not view this as Christian fiction and only recently have the Christian bookstores stocked this literature on their shelves.

Again I pose the question... When you were reading the Chronicles of Narnia as a child, did you have to look REALLLLY close at Aslan to figure out that he represented Christ? Or when you were reading the Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe, did you have your parents buy you a book entitled, "Finding God in the Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe?" Why not? Because #1, it didn't exist. #2, you didn't need it in order to find simple correlations of the Christian faith.

That's all I've been suggesting from the beginning. LOTR may have been considered by SOME to be Christian fiction back in the day, but it was not considered that way on a worldwide scale. Nor is it today. Today the world views it in the same way it views Star Wars. Nothing Christian. Just a phenomenal storyline written by a great literary mind. You see it as Christian. Luke and a few others see it as Christian. Now the Christian bookstores suddenly see it as Christian. But ultimately, why does the world not see it that way? I would conclude that they do not see it that way because it is a universally traditional fantasy. No one in their right mind (Without the "Finding God" book) would naturally see something Christian about LOTR. The world sees it as I see it... a great work of literary fiction. Nothing more.

Why there is such a pursuit of proving its Christianity and why there is such a need for the book "Finding God in LOTR," I do not know. Couldn't the book just stand alone if it was all that you say it is? I believe it should, but standing alone without your "Finding God" book, it stands alone as a worldly and universally remarkable fantasy epic. Nothing more.

Enjoy the remainder of your weekend as the holiday hits tomorrow.

In Christ Alone,
Mercy

Mercy, I know you asked those questions to Kingdom, but I want to answer this one:

"Again I pose the question... When you were reading the Chronicles of Narnia as a child, did you have to look REALLLLY close at Aslan to figure out that he represented Christ?"

When I was little, I didn't understand who Christ or God was. I didn't know either of them and to me, The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe was a fantasy novel.

As I grew and found Christ, I happened to remember that book and read it again. It seemed to me like Aslan DID represent Christ in his death and resurrection and such...in the Magician's Nephew, you view him representing God when he creates Narnia.

It was to my surprise when I found out CS Lewis WAS a Christian. I had no idea until I found out......and read his caption about himself at the end of the book...

Now, Mercy, I know you said something regarding a false title "Finding God in the Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe..." Even if it had existed, my parents wouldn't have gotten it for me...they didn't know Christ either.

I'll just leave my statement as this: I still object to Harry Potter, yet I see LOTR as something most interesting. It's entertaining, yet you learn something at the same time, even if you don't realize it. Yes, the "One person can make all the difference" is true...but without love in the hearts of the fellowship, they would have gotten nowhere. Like ...I think it was Susan who said, Sam represents the utmost loyalty. In the end of the LOTR :Fellowship of the Ring, Sam is the only one still with Frodo when the rest are separated. I like CS Lewis' children's fantasy, and I find it most subtle in presenting Christ. I haven't read "The Last Battle", but from the title, I can guess what it's about.

I don't know if I've made any sense with this post....Oh well. ^_^

God bless you all!




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"Though my back is cut to ribbons with their whips, the Lord is GOOD. For he has snapped the chains that evil men had bound me with." -Psalms 129:3-4

"I am the Way-Yes, the Truth and the Life. No-one can get to the Father except by means of Me."

Sherilyn,

No problem. The questions posted on a thread are always free to public response. Your input is appreciated.

If there is something that stands out in my mind, it has to do with a slightly odd question that I've posed from the beginning. In the beginning, I posed the question suggesting that I wanted to have someone clarify to me why LOTR had suddenly shown up in the Christian Bookstores (which it did) and why Harry Potter didn't have the same attention considering that neither points anyone toward God, Christ, or Christianity. That question was resolved a couple pages back when someone proved to me that Tolkien was a Christian. Up until that point, I just kept reading everyone who had decided from word of mouth that Tolkien was a believer, but had no real idea of whether it was accurate. That has long since been proven.

Do you recall a couple of posts ago when I suggested that this thread amazes me every day because of its longevity? Well, it surprises me because the issues now are no longer basic. Now, for those who choose to see LOTR as fantasy fiction without any reflection of Christianity, it has become the oppositions position to "prove" how Christian LOTR actually is. Ultimately, neither is likely to budge.

I assume that those like Servant, JTW, and Phlo (not to mention myself) are going to continue trying to suggest that LOTR is just a really good story, while voices like Luke, Susan, and others will persist that we should "Find God in the Lord of the Rings." I'm just noticing that I don't think its going to happen.

The discussion is healthy and the debate is quite warranted, but it seems a little bit like everything that could be said has been said and all cases have been presented. Yet, no matter how much is presented to me, I will not see the "Twin Towers" this December with a fresh annointing of Christian Inspiration. To me, it will remain a remarkable creation of fantasy worlds colliding. To me, Middle Earth will always resemble the Universal Force (Star Wars) because it comes down to one thing... one man changing the world through the greatest humility possible. Luke Skywalker saved the galaxy (which is not real) from doom by bringing out the good in Vader. Frodo will overcome the enemies of Middle Earth (which is not real) to achieve the ultimate goal of saving the world.

Good story, but debated conversation that remains consistently discussed as though it will change the minds of the opposite beliefs. Perhaps I am just bored with the topic at this point because it seems we're covering the same things over and over without really achieving any new developments since Page 1 or 2. Quite a while ago, I came to understand without a doubt that Tolkien WAS a Christian. That verifies a lot for me, but it doesn't negate the fact that many Christian authors write stories that are not necessarily Christian.

Oh well. I'm just venting a little bit. Don't mind me. If anything, nothing has changed in my perception of LOTR or Harry Potter since this thread started. I still view Harry Potter as a relatively safe story for children that does NOT inspire witchcraft (unless of course a child pulls up a random website in search of witchcraft). I still view LOTR as a phenomenal fantasy that was created by a brilliant mind.

That said, enjoy the remainder of your weekends everyone. We'll see you again in another post.

Mercy

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"I know that if I'm gonna have any life anymore, its because I'm still willing to fight and die for that inch.... because... that's what living is, the six inches in front of your face!"
- Al Pacino "Any Given Sunday"

Dear family, especially Mercy,

Hi! Thanks for your kind words of encouragement! A final short note on LOTR. Ultimately, not everyone will view this work from the same perspective. I'll certainly disagree with the suggestion that it is not structurally and clearly Christian... as you can tell from my posts... but for those who prefer more obvious works, there is CS Lewis - though as Sherilyn pointed out, its use of symbol may elude some readers, too - and in the end, the Bible IS the clearest manifestation of God's great word for us. Should we read and write new works that convey its truths? No matter what, they will not be as clear as the Bible itself... whether thinly veiled (Veggietales), relatively obvious (Narnia) or more profound and complex (LOTR), any work other than the Bible itself in clear, modern speech does layer its message. Should we only read the Bible? I'll leave that to the philosophers . I believe that learning to plumb the depths of different literary tools will actually enhance one's understanding of Biblical books as well, though I recognize that there are many here whose traditions encourage a very literal reading. To each his or her own! May God use each of our different gifts and perspectives for his glory! Please keep me in your prayers, dear family. Blessings and peace to everyone here!

Maggie

Hi Maggie,

Well said! Have a great week, everyone!

Best wishes,

Luke