Luke, Susan, and those who support LOTR as Christian literature,

This past week, my wife and I went to see the "Two Towers" and thoroughly enjoyed the drawn out story. Yet, there were undeniable themes that crossed my mind in ways that are not necessarily held in agreement by any of you.

Firstly, I made the observation that Gandalf (who had clearly fallen previously to fight with a demon) appeared again as the hero called "the white wizard." His physical appearance was very clearly representative of something familiar that we all would deem non-fiction. The appearance of Gandalf as "the white wizard" in a glowing white robe is very symmetrical (in theory) to that of Jesus' return to earth after his three day absence in a fight "under the ground" (presumably with Satan himself). It is safe to assume that Gandalf represents the "warrior" on a "great white horse," in which his appearance during a battle scene assured the small army of a win.

My problem with this is similar to that of others on this thread. If Gandalf is presumably part of "Finding God in the LOTR," and is furthermore a fictional representation of Jesus (as Aslan was in the Chronicles of Narnia), then how do you (those that I've addressed) rectify the comparison of Jesus to that of a wizard? Are not wizards and witches performers of witchcraft, magic, and other such things that parents have sworn off within the Harry Potter argument? How then can it be that the same people (not you necessarily) who would tell their child that Harry Potter is evil and unhealthy reading material would on the other hand conclude that Gandalf (just as much a wizard has Harry Potter) is a "healthy" representation of Jesus Christ?

Just food for thought.

Secondly, and lastly for now (its late), I made the observation of something that does not necessarily relate to anything that LOTR's Peter Jackson was intending the world to consider. By having created a visionary tale of man's rise to defeat opposing forces determined to wipe out his existance, this creation has indirectly and subtly prepared men, women, and children who currently live in a "safe" world to soon "rise up" against the supernatural that is unfamiliar and appears threatening. When this world is soon no longer "safe," the same generation will remember movies that depict the images of a great war. Inspiration to fight the supernatural (in which case, the world will view God's return as king to be supernatural) will exist within the imaginations that have been stirred up by today's technology. Unfortunately for the world, there will come a day soon when the images of LOTR's great battle scene will no longer be images on a big screen and those who viewed such movies will prepare to fight as though their cause were just.

Though I enjoyed the movie, there was much to consider and much more to chew on as we resurface this discussion. Thank you each for your contribution (JTW as well) to this discussion. I look forward to your responses in the near future. May your holiday break be nourishing and refreshing as you enter into new year.

In Christ Alone,

Mercy

Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings are just 2 examples of movies that portray good vs. evil, it just so happens though that people got steamed, because of the popularity of them both was so high. I think the whole contraversy of the situation has been blown out of proportion big time. Lets all take a breather and calm down. Its just a movie, and if you chose to watch it and didn't approve, then thats your fault, we are faced with choices, you chose to watch it, so lets try and keep the complaints on a low.

Lifegirl,

WELCOME!!!

Its unfortunate that you came in to post on a debate without first knowing that most of us get along and thoroughly enjoy each other's company, challenge, and input. Honestly, this is one of the rare debates in which the people involved are VERY respectful of each other. We have opinions and thoughts, but we treat each other with dignity. If you'll read through some of the conversations that have taken place on this thread, you'll find that we actually make each other laugh quite a bit by our boldness.

Again, welcome to WUG and I encourage you to check out this thread a bit more thoroughly while also checking out some of our other forums and threads. We're really not that bad.

In Christ Alone,

Mercy

I'm sorry, you seemed to have taken my last response the wrong way, it wasn't against any of you, or anyone else, but juts like the rest of you, I was placing my thoughts for ANYONE. I did read through the conversations, and yes, I didn't agree with some of them, gee..that must be why God made us individuals.

Hi Mercy,

Sorry it has taken me some time to respond. I hope you had a great Christmas!

I think we have already dealt with the point of Gandalf's similarity with Christ. Long ago in this conversation, I told you that in the Two Towers Gandalf comes back from the dead, as Christ would in real life. Does this mean that Gandalf was like Christ? Yes. Does this mean that he was a false Christ? Certainly not. Many patriarchs in the Old Testament were like Christ in some excellent respect, but unlike him in others. One cannot make an analogy that can be pushed far in any case (incl. Gandalf).

As for Gandalf being in white, it reminds me of the men in white outside the tomb after Jesus' resurrection. As for Gandalf being "a wizard like Harry Potter", that too has been addressed over and over. Sometimes I think you skim my posts to you without really reading. For all this has been addressed, and I've asked you many times to reply.

I'm afraid I don't understand your second and last point, in your last post. Do you mean that Gandalf and his side in Lord of the Rings were waging a war against the supernatural, even just after you said that Gandalf was supernatural both in the sense of being a Christ figure (who is holy) and in the sense of being a wizard (which, as you agreed earlier, was anti-Christian and wrong)? Surely this is not your meaning; I'm sorry, I don't understand. Where do you put Gandalf? On the level of the natural (vs. supernatural), or on the level of the supernatural and good, or on the level of the supernatural and bad, or as you said early in this discussion, on the level of story that is theologically neutral?

Have a great day, and God bless!

Luke

Luke,

No worries on the long wait for response. Our holidays were filled with car trouble, cold/flu junk, and the long lived death of my wife's childhood bird. In the midst of that, I managed to post a few things myself, but not as much as I would have normally done on vacation.

"I think we have already dealt with the point of Gandalf's similarity with Christ. Long ago in this conversation, I told you that in the Two Towers Gandalf comes back from the dead, as Christ would in real life. Does this mean that Gandalf was like Christ? Yes. Does this mean that he was a false Christ? Certainly not. Many patriarchs in the Old Testament were like Christ in some excellent respect, but unlike him in others. One cannot make an analogy that can be pushed far in any case (incl. Gandalf)."

Firstly, I don't recall mentioning Gandalf as a "false" Christ for indeed, we are talking about fantasy fiction here. A "false" Christ would be one that holds himself up to be salvation and redemption to the world when in fact he is not. But even in that... we would be discussing real world current events and LOTR is most certainly not real world.

As to Gandalf being "like" Christ, this is the issue. Disregard in your mind the idea that I am implying his character as a false Christ, but rather that his character is "representative" or "like" Christ. With this in mind, I'm torn in the idea that a fictional WIZARD is deemed a "representation" of Christ. As in, the character that is "like" Christ in this supposedly Christian literature is one to whom the attributes of magic and sorcery are a foundation for power. It still surprises me that you do not consider this as an unresolved consideration in your mind, for in your words, Gandalf represents Christ from a fictional standpoint and ultimately, there is no problem with this concept to you. I'm surprised.

"As for Gandalf being in white, it reminds me of the men in white outside the tomb after Jesus' resurrection."

That's great, but somehow I'm feeling myself drawn back to the story Green Eggs and Ham in which each page of the story signified something uniquely spiritual and enlightening to my heart. So the whiteness of Gandalf reminds you of the men outside Jesus' tomb? Ironically, the Green Eggs remind me of the grass I just saw in Florida during the winter (truly remarkable ).

"As for Gandalf being "a wizard like Harry Potter", that too has been addressed over and over."

Here's one of my great flaws... my long term memory rots if I'm not either studying a topic or experiencing a moment. Discussing 7 LONG pages of LOTR, I haven't much drive to go back through each page to find the few statements that addressed an issue that someone else was concerned about but that I was not prepared to discuss. Not until the visual imagery of the Two Towers did I see the potential for his character to be representative of Christ. Now that I see it, my mind is processing new thoughts of which new responses are always welcome.

"Sometimes I think you skim my posts to you without really reading. For all this has been addressed, and I've asked you many times to reply."

That's stretching it just a bit. I always read your posts as thoroughly as you give attention to mine. That which you asked me "many times" to reply to was a page 5 article that I had endorsed or found interesting. Beyond that, I'm not sure that I ever implied that there was a thought running through my head about whether Gandalf was similar to Christ or that one wizard's glorified character is another wizard's parental nightmare. Never did these thoughts cross my mind regarding similarities until the most recent viewing of Two Towers. Prior to that, it was my sarcasm that implied LOTR was no more Christian fiction than Harry Potter. Today, I find that original thought even more true, but with less sarcastic internal curiosity.

"I'm afraid I don't understand your second and last point, in your last post. Do you mean that Gandalf and his side in Lord of the Rings were waging a war against the supernatural, even just after you said that Gandalf was supernatural both in the sense of being a Christ figure (who is holy) and in the sense of being a wizard (which, as you agreed earlier, was anti-Christian and wrong)? Surely this is not your meaning; I'm sorry, I don't understand. Where do you put Gandalf? On the level of the natural (vs. supernatural), or on the level of the supernatural and good, or on the level of the supernatural and bad, or as you said early in this discussion, on the level of story that is theologically neutral?"

No no, my friend. I think it may have been my longwinded sense of writing that threw your interpretation of my words into confusion. The point I was making had nothing to do with attack or debate, but rather, an interesting tangent regarding the imagination of man in this generation.

Here's what crossed my mind in the war scene...

Great battle scenes in movies are only a recent fascination (30-40 years old). Prior to that point, war was real and presenting it on film would have been demoralizing and disheartening to the soldiers fighting in World Wars, Civil Wars, and Revolutionary Wars (not that film was around that long ago). Today, our children go out to see movies that depict images of GREAT and MAGNIFICENT wars in which the fate of the world rests in the balance of just a few who are willing to lead a revolution.

My perceptions of the nearing end of this great society we trust in give way to perceiving more about imminent war on film than the average moviegoer. The average moviegoer will come out of LOTR and say, "The battle scene was incredible!" I come out of the movie saying, "The further we go in portraying it on film, the closer we are to painting images of things that are soon to come." Not in film, but in this world.

Believe me, it was not an attack on characters, scripts, or even Christian literature or fantasy literature. Rather, I was simply making an observation regarding the tone of modern film and its nearing impact on the minds of men who will one day soon not be watching war on film, nor will they be enlisting in the armed forces. The day will come when fighting will not be a choice, but a destiny of men who feel threatened.

Now. On a more positive note , our holidays were restful (beyond the sickness) and refreshing. Its actually tough to place myself back into the mindset of responsibilities and occupation, but here I go...

Enjoy your week,

Mercy

Mercy,

tho, you did not come out and say/post it straight forward, i will - concerning our modern entertainment! you, basically, said that it is entertainment (and i would add music, politics, and etc.) that influences our generation to do what they are thinking of and/or actually doing! i would dare say that our entertainment, especially, in our beloved country, is influenced by wicked spiritual beings in high places!
now, i know many people who would read this will not like it and neither wil they agree! i say to you, well then, so be it! you can choose to neglect it if you desire, it is your life ! and believe me or not, i say that in love!

i mean, look at it! you can clearly see the fruit of what we are doing! what type of fruit are we producing and how is that fruit effecting each of us! (now, i know that there are plenty of you (the reader) that nothing seems to effect! well, to you i say, 'to thy own self be true'! you know (and God knows) if after you hear certain music or after you see certain movies or whatever - if you are 'thinking' of trying some things out! be true to yourself! each of us are influenced with or by something/someone!) there is nothing new under the sun! (meaning, you, yourself, have not come up with something spanking brand new)

every temptation is common to man!

Jesus said that we are living in deceitful times! i never thought that we could be deceived by mere entertainment! by just listening to music! by voting for certain politicians! i never thought that we could be deceived so easily! but once i stopped denying 'what is happening right before my eyes', i realized that the things we love to engage in are the very things that's deceiving us!
and it is being influence by spiritual wickedness that is bent on rebelling against every Word God deems as Truth!

no wonder we have so much abortions going on - we see it in our entertainment!

no wonder we have so much divorces - we see it in our entertainment!

no wonder we have much, much murders and killings - we see it in our entertainment!

entertainment, music, politics, (you name it) - mostly (NOTICE I SAID "MOSTLY") everything is rebellous against the Word of God or what God says!
and the ironic thing about it all is this: many of us who do this (entertain, should i say) profess to be 'Christians'!
but yet, for the sake of entertainment & for the sake of making a living, we promote the very 'things' that God declares is sin (He hates)!

is this not deceit?

how can anyone say that its just entertainment, it does no harm (at least, not to me) [which is a selfish statement, btw] - when it is killing us slowly but surely!

you know what, it seems to be a clever strategy by the enemy! i will cause them to be entertained by sin and then tell them that it is okay to just watch! (because i (the enemy) already know that they are not going to actually do it) (so they think) but the more they allow me to plant these ideas into them, and surround them with it - the more their curiosity or lust (i dare say) would be drawn to do it!!!!

now, Family, you probable be thinking, Phlo, man, you are stretching this! and i very well may be! but, at least, it is something that we need to seriously think about! i mean, come on, how else are we to be deceived when the knowledge of the Truth is so evident/right before our very eyes? the only way any of us could be deceived is if we compromised the Truth for something that is pleasing to us!
(after all, entertainment is pleasing to our flesh more so than our spirit)

NOTE: now, let me clarify something before you let your wrath loose on me! i grant that not all of entertainment or music or politicians are dainted or even influenced by spiritual beings or evil! we do have a few goodness left! but the majority of what we got is filth!
END NOTE:

i must confess, it wasn't my intentions to speak on these things! that is, not until i've read Mercy' post fully! my intentions was to inform you all that i have seen both Lord of the Ring's movies and to inform Sir, Luke and Queen Susan (and other hard-core fans) that i have been reading the trilogy, the ONE-VOLUME EDITION of LOTR, as well!!!! i am on the 5th book and the 3rd chapter, which is the last leg of the trilogy! i am partly thru, maybe 1/3rd of the way to go!

i do have a few questions and a few statements i would ask at a later time but i will say that the movie's really do not do the series any good justice! they took things out of order and they left certain things out! there were certain things i was just looking for that i didn't see! oh well, thats the movies for you! other than that, it was quite entertaining ( , if you will)!!!

hey, i pray that none of you are offended by my ranting off in the alpha of my post! tho, i feel it to be absolutely true, i, too, am guilty! i am influenced (by my own curiousity or lust, if you will) to partake/participate in things i know i should not have even blinked at! as real as i believe in spiritual wickedness in high places, i believe, also, in the spiritual warfare between my flesh and the Spirit! i could feel it, sometimes! as if my being wants to go in two directions at once!

again, please forgive me if i've pushed your wrong buttons! you are not obligated to agree with what i've said! it is your choice to even ponder it or not!

in Love.............

[img]http://www.fci.crossnet.se/uploads/4thman.jpg[/img]

Hey ya'll!
Here is my two cents worth (if its worth that much... :p ) :

I, personally, LOVED Lord of the Rings! LOVED IT! And I don't see how people CAN'T see spiritual messages in it. Tolkien said he didn't intend it for JUST a Christian audience, which leads me to my first point. Can a Christian not write a book to non-Christians? Of Course! ESPECIALLY if it is at ALL spiritual! Why not getting people thinking about spiritual things/religion? I see MB's point about it not being Christian, but in my OPINION (hehe) at least they are thinking about God and if they seek the true God then CHRIST WILL FIND THEM. Anyways, there are definatly things that relate to Christ (Gandolf! Don't read further if you haven't seen the second one or don't want the movies ruined) Gandolf coming back and being white (pure) definatly draws comparisons to Jesus. Even if it doesn't I believe it doesn't matter. I can go on, but I will not unless people respond

As for Harry Potter, I have not seen it so I can not truly comment on it. Peace Ya'll!

Bless ya, Family,

Sir Luke, if you would be so kind to indulge me in this once again it would be much appreciated!

i have finally finish reading the novel, in which Tolkien liked to call it! i must say that the book entertained me more so than the movies!
now, some things you've probable answered or eliberated on already! but since i've just got thru reading it, it is quite fresh in me, now! thus, i may need some fresh feed-back from you! thank you ahead of time!

feel free to commit on anything i propose:

now, in the Forward of the novel, Tolkien writes this: "as for any inner meaning or 'message', it has in the intention of the author none. it is neither allegorical nor topical."

also: "but i cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always have done so since i grew old and wary enough to detect its presence. i much prefer history, true or feigned, with its varied applicability to the thought and experience of the readers. i think that many confuse 'applicability' with 'allegory'; but the one resides in the freedom of the reader, and the other in the purposed domination of the author."

now, Sir Luke and family, what is your standpoint on these two statements by Tolkien?

[Luke, i really don't have much to ask you about all of this, as you will see!]

ABOUT THE STORY, ITSELF:

"Behind that there was something else at work, beyond any design of the Ring-Maker. I can put it no plainer than by saying that Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, and not by its maker." - this statement, Luke, is one of the only things in the whole book that caused me to think of a 'greater power'! that is to say, God! also, the character 'Tom Bombadil', in whom i am still curious about, caused me to think about a 'greater power'! for some reason, he seemed to be the only one who WAS NOT TEMTPED BY THE RING! of course, that would get my attention!

you may not know the answer to this but, how come Tolkien didn't get more in dept or go further into the character of Tom Bombadil? or maybe is there more writings on him elsewhere?

Luke, you know, if i had to pick someone out of all the characters of 'LOTR's' to represent Christ it would not be Gandolf! but it would be Aragorn, or Strider, they called him (just to note, he had other names he went by as well)!
for he was the most humblest! he was a soldier! he was bold and courageous! he was very helpful! and he didn't mind sacrificing himself for his friends or his comrades!
also, at the end, to even my amazement, he was/is King! and he had the ability to heal people! and his 'Era' or time of reigning was greater than the former times of before!

yes, Luke, i would say that he has more in common with Christ than any of the rest! and those that walked with him, honored him and his word!

oh, and just to note this: the character 'Sam" was awesome! his love for his friend 'Frodo' was quite compelling and moving! he and he alone let nothing separate him from his friend! even he was willing to die for his friend! that was awesome!

you know, tho LOTR was a good novel and tho it held my curiosity, i still hold to my same view point! aftr reading it, i conclude that LOTR is not a Christian literature novel! it is simply a fantasy story created out of the imagination of Tolkien! he, himself, confirms this! he states, "the prime motive was the desire of a tale-teller to try his hand at a really long story that would hold the attentions of readers, amuse them, delight them..........As a guide i had only my own feelings for what is appealing or, moving, and for many the guide was inevitably often at fault."

also, Tolkien stated that lot of things that he did in LOTR's was for hsi own satisfaction! he said that he had little hope that other people would be interested in some of his work!

well, that is enough for now! if this isn't too much, i would like a little response from you Luke and from whomever else who is interested! thank you for your patience!

in Love...............

[img]http://www.fci.crossnet.se/images/savedbygrace.gif[/img]

Hi Phlo,

How are you? Thanks for the post. I'm sorry I don't have time to respond now, but within the next few days I'll have the chance. I won't forget, ok? Have a great day.

Best wishes,

Luke