This is probably a bit of a controversial topic. And I hope that things do not get out of hand... Please post prayerfully and considerately of others!

It's been on my mind for awhile now... How much, if at all, are we to judge our brothers and sisters? For what reasons would you judge someone?

People like to judge. I'm one of them. I like having an opinion, whether it's on something or someone. But can this be taken too far? Can there be reprecussions for taking the judging into our own hands? Is judgement taking a right from God, simply because we don't trust him enough to judge righteously? Or, perhaps I can be pious enough to say that God enables us to judge as He would. Therefore making US His judges here on Earth...

I look forward to hearing from you.

God bless,
Kevin

I posted my thoughts on this subject to Donna under the homosexuality thread. It went something like this:



My thoughts on the subject have not changed.


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By His grace-



And when I stand, let me stand on the promise,
that you will pull me through,
And when I fall, let me fall on the grace,
that first brought me to you.
-Rich Mullins.<font color="black">

[This message has been edited by Servant (edited 09-09-2002).]

Kevin,

I agree with Servant 90% (that's pretty close, huh?), but don't really have the focus right now to respond wholeheartedly tonight (MNF and everything). Give me a couple of days and I'll have a healthy response.

Servant,

Thanks for sharing sincerely. I enjoyed reading your words.

Mercy



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"Life's this game of inches... and I know that if I'm gonna have any life anymore, its because I'm still willing to fight and die for that inch.... because... that's what living is, the six inches in front of your face!... because we know when we add up all those inches... that's gonna make the difference between winning and losing... between living and dying."
- Al Pacino "Any Given Sunday"

"I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith." II Timothy 4:7

Servant,

Ok, third time through reading your post. You give your position well. I do agree with much of it. There are a couple things though.

I should point out that 1John 3:6 is not what you quoted it as... Could you tell me EXACTLY where you got that passage? (Check 1John 2:6, I dunno... It's kind of a mesh between the two! )

One other thing. If we are to "remove the evil person", how are we to ever know that they have repented?

MB~

Take your time brother, but I do look forward to hearing your thoughts. That 10% is just killing me!

God bless,
Kevin

Hi Kevin,

Sorry for the confusion. The passage reference (which has since been corrected) was 1 John 2:4-6 from the The New Living Translation.

As for your question:



Well, what does the Bible tell us about repentence and forgiveness?

Jesus said:

If he sins against you seven times in one day, and each time he comes to you saying, 'I repent,' you must forgive him."
(Luk 17:4)

So Jesus presents an example where the person comes to you and says "I repent". That would be one way to know.

What do you think a second (closely related) way would be?


------------------
By His grace-



And when I stand, let me stand on the promise,
that you will pull me through,
And when I fall, let me fall on the grace,
that first brought me to you.
-Rich Mullins.<font color="black">

[This message has been edited by Servant (edited 09-09-2002).]

Kevin:


We judge our brothers and sisters all the time. Judgments are made about who to promote, hire, and fire daily. Grades are given on essays in school that are somewhat subjective and based on judgments. Juries render verdicts that pass judgments on people regularly. We must make judgments.

The issue you are getting at is a slightly different one though. You are talking about judging someone's walk with the Lord. That relationship is a highly personal relationship. I thought about it considerably last evening.

I can never know the full extent of your relationship with your God Kevin. By the same token you will never know the full extent of my relationship with my God. That is due in part to our limited interaction here, but not entirely.

Let me use an analogy. Let us take the most personal relationship I can think of that being marriage. It is impossible for me to know what somebody else's marriage is based upon. I can speculate, conjure up my thoughts, and they may even be right based upon what limited parts of that relationship that I see. But I don't know what goes on behind closed doors. That is between a man and a wife.

For that very reason, I don't presume to know if the marriage is in trouble or not. If one of the marriage partners seeks guidance from me then I may opine about what I would do. However, I do not tell somebody else that their marriage is a sham, founded upon a misunderstanding of their partner. It very well may be, and I may intimate that. I would never tell that person that they just flat out don't know their spouse, even if I think that. I couch it in terms of here is something that you may want to look at that could be of benefit to you in enhancing that relationship.

Do you see the difference? To me it's an important one. It sets the tone. If I can suggest what has been helpful to me to another, I may be able to guide them.

However, to pass judgment on their walk with their God, something I most assuredly lack a considerable amount of information about, is beyond my capacities, and beyond the capacities of the most respected people in my life. That's why I think there are biblical references in several parts of the Good Book about judging others.


Now, the issue arises what about actions that are unacceptable. Well, that is different. I can tell someone that their actions are unacceptable. Someone's actions often times may well be, and should be confronted. Simply because I don't pass judgment upon another does not mean that I have to tolerate say somebody being rude to me. I don't.

In doing so though, I don't judge the person, I confront the actions. Their is a saying about Love the Person, Hate the Actions. I think it is true and I believe that there exists strong biblical support for it.

That said, I think I've gone on long enough.

jtw

[This message has been edited by jtw63017 (edited 09-10-2002).]

Good morning JTW!

13 For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." 15 But if you bite and devour one another, beware lest you be consumed by one another! 16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, F19 fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, F20 drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.
(Galatians 5:13-26)

There is much to be said about unrepentence...refusal to turn from the flesh. Unfortunately, I cannot elaborate right now. But unrepentence plays a large role.

Think about a marriage where the husband is unfaithful and there is no repentence. Is that marriage healthy? Can we rightly judge that this man is not walking in the covenant of his marriage?

Food for thought.

Have a great day!


------------------
By His grace-



And when I stand, let me stand on the promise,
that you will pull me through,
And when I fall, let me fall on the grace,
that first brought me to you.
-Rich Mullins.<font color="black">

[This message has been edited by Servant (edited 09-10-2002).]

I probably should make the distinction that such a judgement does not imply that this man does not love his wife (the condition of his heart), but simply the state of his covenant with her.

Just thought I should clarify that a bit...



------------------
By His grace-



And when I stand, let me stand on the promise,
that you will pull me through,
And when I fall, let me fall on the grace,
that first brought me to you.
-Rich Mullins.

Excellent Servant! Excellent point.

I think you have touched on the mistake many Christians make when discussing judgement. We can judge actions and rightly so. Yet, we don't have all the facts and cannot judge the heart. We do not know the motives. Shoot, many times we do things ourselves and wonder why the heck we did them. If we cannot understand our own heart, how in the world can we understand the heart of another?

I also like what you said about judging unbelievers. We should not expect lost people to lived saved. They can't live like the saved can. They don't have the power to do so.

Excellent posts Servant.

Blessings,

Mark

Actually, I thought I might point out some correlations between Servants and JTW's posts. YOU GUYS ARE ACTUALLY AGREEING!!!

Well, on some very fundamental points at least. You are just saying things slightly differently.

JTW describes a marriage relationship, and what happens behind closed doors is not for us to judge. While Servant says that sin can only be judged once it affects others, or becomes open. God will deal with the persons "secret" sins Himself.

JTW describes that actions are to be judged. And so does Servant!!!



I just thought I'd point that out for you two. Hehe!

Servant~

Your question:



Say what?! Sorry brother, but you've lost me.

Perhaps this is what you were after...

When I think of repentance, I think of someone turning from their sins. So if someone has not asked forgiveness but changed their lifestyle (repented of their sin) and it is apparent, than that would be grounds to forgive them too.

Or am I way off here?

Lastly, I'd like to address your original response. And the use of 1 John 2:4-6 (Thank you for the correction!). You are painting with a very broad stroke when you use such a verse.

I claim to be in Christ. I also claim to disobey God's commandments. I'm a sinner. I sin. I miss the mark. Does this mean I am not "in Christ."

The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.
1 John 2:4-6 (NIV)

Wow! I can safely say that not a single one of us is Christian on this board. "Walk as Jesus did?!" I WISH!

I suppose we should all cast eachother out now.

Actually, John says something BEFORE these verses, that helps put things into a better perspective. I hope you base your judgements on the full passage.

My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense - Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 John 2:1-2

Take either one of these passages on their own, and they can be very dangerous! But put them together and it leaves a very fine stroke.

Which is exactly what we need when we judge.

God bless,
Kevin

[This message has been edited by -Kevbo- (edited 09-10-2002).]